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Inner medication doctor Harry Oken discusses his article “mRNA submit vaccination syndrome: Is it actual?” On this episode, Harry explores the science, uncertainty, and human tales surrounding post-vaccination syndrome (PVS) linked to mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. Drawing on medical knowledge and private expertise, he explains how lingering immune reactions could have an effect on sufferers and why analysis is urgently wanted to make clear causes and coverings. Harry emphasizes compassion, scientific rigor, and the significance of investigating uncommon outcomes with out undermining public belief in vaccines. Viewers will achieve a deeper understanding of PVS, ongoing research like Yale’s LISTEN venture, and the way medication continues to stability innovation with security.
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Transcript
Kevin Pho: Hello, and welcome to the present. Subscribe at KevinMD.com/podcast. Right now, we welcome Harry Oken. He’s an inner medication doctor. Right now’s KevinMD article is “mRNA post-vaccination syndrome: Is it actual?” Harry, welcome to the present.
Harry Oken: Thanks for having me, Kevin. It’s a pleasure to be right here and let you know slightly bit about my story.
Kevin Pho: All proper, let’s begin from there. Let’s discuss your story and bounce proper into your KevinMD article.
Harry Oken: I’ve been in apply for about 40 years and seen so much over these years. Through the pandemic in Maryland, the place I’m, from about March 15 till in regards to the second week in Might, we had been shut down. The kind of apply I’ve, I ship out an e-mail e-newsletter virtually usually, however throughout COVID-19, I despatched one out each day for about sixty days, making an attempt to grasp what was occurring. Again then, if individuals can put their heads again to the place we had been, we had been fairly scared. We had no concept what this virus was going to do, and I’m going to confer with that virus because the ancestral pressure.
It was rather more virulent than the virus we all know at present. In fact, throughout that point, we didn’t have a vaccine. We had been searching for treatments. Any treatment that got here up was oftentimes rapidly mentioned that it wasn’t efficacious. You bear in mind the hydroxychloroquine story, and so forth. I used to be actually proper within the thick of it, writing each day and speaking with my sufferers.
As you could bear in mind, individuals had been going to the grocery retailer carrying gloves and goggles and had been anxious. We had been carrying face masks. We had been instructed by the general public well being specialists what we needed to do, what we couldn’t do, distancing, and isolation, and it was a multitude.
I’ll say that in that point, we didn’t know what was occurring, so precautions had been wanted.
I believe as we bought additional and additional into it, we acknowledged the worth of distancing. Six ft? What was that about? Masking, double masking, KN95 masking. As time went on, I believe we realized from what we had been doing, what labored and what didn’t work. Nonetheless, I believe there was a number of governmental stress for us to observe what the specialists had been saying.
The specialists on the time had been Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, and Dr. Redfield. And so we did that. In 2020, the vaccine turned accessible. The Pfizer and Moderna got here accessible, and there was a really, very large push for everyone to be vaccinated. Very quickly after we had been vaccinated in 2021, we began to see a decline in mortality and hospitalizations.
It was rapidly attributed to the vaccine, which, when you consider it, doesn’t actually make sense. It takes six or eight weeks to get a vaccine response. The primary vaccines, which had been mRNA vaccines, got, as you bear in mind, at zero time after which three to 4 weeks later. They’ll take a while to affect our immune system, however quite instantly, we had been instructed these items work. They’re very efficient they usually’re protected.
As time went on, by 2021, the virus had already mutated from the ancestral model, which got here from Wuhan, in all probability an unintentional lab leak. It then morphed and mutated into a wide range of totally different strains, which sequentially had been in all probability much less virulent.
Early on, we bought the primary two boosters adopted by the… the primary two main collection, after which boosters. We had been pushed for boosters. Many individuals bought boosters; many individuals bought the sickness. I believe we are able to settle for now that the pure immunity we get from the sickness is each bit nearly as good as any vaccine, in all probability higher. However we had been actually pushed in some ways by our authorities officers to proceed taking vaccines. We now know from some Cleveland Clinic knowledge, in all probability the extra vaccines you’re taking, the extra susceptible you might be to future COVID-19.
The COVID-19 virus now could be very gentle. It’s normally a two- to three-day phenomenon, and most of the people do nicely as a result of they in all probability had COVID-19 earlier than. Perhaps the vaccine’s useful, possibly not. My article talks about whether or not or not the mRNA vaccine is protected. I believe if you take a look at the variety of mRNA vaccines given on the earth, we’re taking a look at over 12 billion vaccines given over this time period. That’s an awfully large denominator. With a purpose to see a sign of security, that numerator goes to should be fairly large to get individuals’s consideration.
Nonetheless, should you had been a kind of individuals who bought a perceived vaccine harm, which could have been cardiovascular (significantly myocarditis in younger males beneath 30), thrombotic (and we noticed a number of uncommon thrombosis-related vaccine accidents), autoimmune, or rheumatologic (which occurs to be my spouse), should you had been a kind of individuals, or had menstrual abnormalities and neurologic abnormalities. The neurologic abnormality I’ve seen personally has been peripheral neuropathy.
If you happen to had been a kind of individuals making up that numerator, as a result of there have been so many given, the denominator is so large, the numerator must be hundreds of thousands to see a giant sign. However I can let you know there’s a number of unrecognized vaccine harm from the mRNA vaccine.
There may be one other various. The choice is the protein subunit vaccine, made by an organization referred to as Novavax, which works another way. Presenting your physique with a identified antigen. Your physique has a identified decay fee. The antigen, which is an identical to the spike protein, is decayed over two to 3 weeks. It’s gone. However within the case of the mRNA vaccine, what’s occurring is (and this isn’t in all probability occurring in all people) it’s given within the arm, it does get to the remainder of the physique. It’s a message, it will get into the cells, into the nucleus of the cells, and tells the ribosomes to make the spike protein.
For most individuals, that spike protein manufacturing is small, however there’s a bunch of individuals, and we don’t perceive who these are, the place the spike protein manufacturing continues, and it may well proceed for lengthy durations of time. Within the Hear examine, which was printed by researchers at Yale whom I’ve spoken with, they discovered that some individuals who had been vaccinated had isolatable spike protein over 700 days after vaccination. That wasn’t speculated to occur.
We now have this vaccine that for some individuals invokes an uncommon response and promotes a complete number of uncomfortable side effects, which I believe at the moment are being acknowledged. We now have this factor about “protected and efficient.” If, early on, you made any notion or rumblings that possibly it wasn’t so protected or possibly it wasn’t efficient, or possibly we must always solely give it to the very susceptible, then you definitely had been demonized. That’s why I wrote the article.
Kevin Pho: So, as you mentioned, the denominator for many who bought the mRNA vaccines was so massive that you would need to have a big numerator to have the sign pull by. What sort of signs are you seeing mostly attributed that might make up a few of that numerator?
Harry Oken: I believe the commonest issues are thrombogenic points: stroke, DVT, and pulmonary embolus. The affected person I’ve has a rheumatic facet impact, which is much less widespread.
Early on, we had been speaking about, and we noticed this with the mRNA vaccines, myocarditis in younger males beneath 30. Now, a younger man beneath 30 could be very, most unlikely to get an issue from COVID-19. It’s in all probability higher for them to have the pure sickness than get the vaccine. That’s why in sure areas of the world, not the nation, they’re not giving mRNA vaccines to males beneath 30 as a result of their sign for getting myocarditis and pericarditis is there.
What’s attention-grabbing is should you take a look at the FDA threshold for doing one thing about uncomfortable side effects from a vaccine. If you happen to look method again, let’s say to swine flu within the Nineteen Seventies when Gerald Ford was the president and we had been giving swine flu vaccinations, which had been rapidly dropped at market. I used to be in faculty on the time and bought an air injection. I nonetheless bear in mind it. However there was a sign of Guillain-Barré related to the swine flu. As quickly as that sign was seen, it was about one out of 100,000. What did the FDA do? They pulled the vaccine. They mentioned the danger isn’t well worth the profit.
Within the late Nineteen Nineties, the rotavirus vaccine got here to market. The ACIP committee mentioned, “That is vital. Children ought to get this.” When one or two children out of 100,000 developed intussusception, they pulled the vaccine.
Some individuals assume that vaccine opposed uncomfortable side effects with mRNA vaccines are as excessive as one out of 800. So what occurred? We didn’t pull the vaccine. We’re nonetheless giving the vaccine. You may nonetheless see ads on tv to get your vaccine.
I believe it’s not as protected and efficient as individuals assume. When it comes to being efficient, even if you take a look at the Novavax vaccine, which is the protein subunit vaccine, does it maintain you from getting COVID-19? No, it in all probability doesn’t. Just like the flu vaccine, should you take a flu vaccine, your probability of reducing your threat for flu is decreased by about 25 p.c. However should you do get the flu vaccine, your threat of needing medical care falls by 60 p.c. I believe that’s the worth of taking the flu vaccine, significantly for susceptible individuals.
We will’t actually say that for the COVID-19 vaccines, however not solely that, the flu vaccine is on a protected, identified platform that’s been accessible for years. The mRNA platform is new, and we don’t know as a lot as we must always about it.
Kevin Pho: Now, is there any testing or biomarkers that we have to examine mRNA post-vaccine syndrome successfully?
Harry Oken: I’m glad you requested that as a result of we’re not in an excellent place to grasp trigger and impact. However I’ll let you know this. Initially, there isn’t any business assay for the spike protein. You may’t get it. It’s solely in analysis labs. That’s an issue. If you happen to imagine that you simply nonetheless have spike and it’s inflicting thrombogenic or cardiovascular or neurologic or autoimmune issues, you may’t commercially isolate the spike protein.
What you are able to do is test antibody titers to spike. It’s been mentioned and printed that an antibody titer of larger than 5,000 is in step with circulating spike, and that circulating spike is probably, in all probability, inflammatory, possibly even oncogenic. We don’t know. Within the affected person that I wrote about, her spike antibody was as excessive as 20,000. As she’s gotten higher, it has fallen to about 10,000, however it’s nonetheless excessive.
The idea is that mRNA vaccines decontrol our immune system not directly that we don’t perceive. If you consider the immune system in two methods, we take into consideration the B cells, which make antibody, and the T cells, which defend us. It’s thought that the T cells are dysregulated and drained and the B cells are in perpetual churning out of antibody for some motive. If we take a look at these two remoted programs, B-cell, T-cell, TH1 response, TH2 response, we expect that that dysregulation is being pushed not directly by this vaccine.
Kevin Pho: What does it say in regards to the mRNA platform? I do know that there was hope in utilizing this platform past COVID-19, proper? Now with the present administration, I do know that they’re pulling a number of funding for the mRNA platform. What does it say for the way forward for this platform going ahead?
Harry Oken: Effectively, they did pull funding, however just for vaccine know-how. I believe there’s one thing there which is likely to be terrific for oncology and different areas to create focused strategies of coping with sure illness entities. The rationale why this was developed, it got here out of biodefense as a result of if there was a pandemic, the thought was, since this can be a completely artificial vaccine (totally different than the Novavax vaccine, which is a protein subunit vaccine), we might work out the genome of the microbe that’s threatening us. We might create an antigen rapidly. There aren’t any biologic merchandise used, and we might, voila, have our vaccine.
That’s why all of the eggs had been put in that basket. Dr. Redfield, who was head of the CDC through the Trump administration, was one of many first individuals to come back out and say, “I believe this was a lab leak.” In fact, he was demonized for that. That was about three months after Trump was out of workplace. He got here out and mentioned, “This was an unintentional lab leak. That’s what’s occurring.” He was demonized till later. It’s typically accepted that this was a lab leak.
Dr. Redfield was essential in ensuring that every one the eggs weren’t put in a single basket and we simply had an mRNA vaccine. He pushed for having another, which is the protein subunit vaccine, which I believe is a safer vaccine. Whether or not it’s efficacious or not, I’m not so certain, however it’s a safer vaccine.
At this level, what I inform my sufferers is, and I observe latest suggestions from the Cleveland Clinic, which is most individuals who had the unique vaccine (which was two, adopted by one booster) or the sickness seemingly don’t should be vaccinated once more for COVID-19. As a result of it’s a gentle sickness. I believe one of many issues that I actually scratch my head on is why the American Academy of Pediatrics remains to be recommending or endorsing COVID-19 vaccinations for kids six months to 5 years of age after we know there are all these issues with the vaccine. Once you take a look at the mortality fee of COVID-19 for kids, it’s infinitesimally small. It’s a lot smaller than flu. Actually, susceptible children ought to get flu pictures. The flu vaccine is a protected vaccine. Give it. However COVID-19 vaccination? Once we know there are such a lot of issues?
Kevin Pho: When it comes to a distinction between the mRNA platform and say one thing just like the Novavax, proper? Would that change your pondering in the event that they solely really useful platforms aside from the mRNA?
Harry Oken: I believe it might be higher. I believe the security document for Novavax is significantly better. I believe there are such a lot of uncertainties in regards to the mRNA vaccine as a result of in sure individuals, there aren’t any brakes to inform your physique to cease making this spike protein, which you don’t want.
Now, this spike protein has been discovered all around the physique. Just lately, there was an article that confirmed {that a} girl in Japan had a breast most cancers, they usually remoted the spike protein inside the most cancers. We don’t must proceed making a protein that we don’t usually make. Who that’s going to occur to is anyone’s guess as a result of it doesn’t occur to all people. I believe it’s a comparatively unusual occasion, however once more, we don’t know the downstream results of those vaccines. There are individuals who have gotten 5, six, or seven mRNA vaccines on the recommendation of their doctor or the CDC. I believe we have to take a great take a look at this. A very good look.
Kevin Pho: So within the affected person that you simply talked about in your article, how is she doing when it comes to her post-vaccine syndromes? Have these signs dissipated through the years?
Harry Oken: What occurs to her (who, on your viewers, is my spouse), and when she has gotten COVID… Her signs began about three to 4 weeks after she bought her third vaccine, which was the primary booster. It was not clear in any respect what was occurring at first.
As time went on, there was no different rationalization for her reactive arthritis. What we see for her is a waxing and waning of her antibody titer. When she actually flares, she will get swollen joints. Her knee might be the dimensions of a small melon and must be drained. She is thankfully attentive to corticosteroids, however that has its personal issues. Proper now she’s doing nicely. It seems to be like she flares if she will get COVID-19. Final October she had COVID-19; she flared. Then in March or April this yr, she in all probability had COVID-19 and has flared. She’s now beneath management, fortunately.
Kevin Pho: We’re speaking to Harry Oken. He’s an inner medication doctor. Right now’s KevinMD article is “mRNA post-vaccination syndrome: Is it actual?” Harry, let’s have some take-home messages that you simply wish to go away with the KevinMD viewers.
Harry Oken: The take-home message, I believe, is that now, primarily based on what we all know, we must always query who will get the COVID-19 vaccine, significantly an mRNA vaccine. I reserve it for probably the most susceptible individuals. These are individuals in all probability 70 or 75 and over who’ve comorbidities that you simply’re actually anxious about them getting COVID-19, as a result of we are able to’t say at this level, primarily based on newer knowledge, that continued vaccination decreases our threat for the sickness. Now the sickness is way milder.
Kevin Pho: Harry, thanks a lot for sharing your perspective and perception. Thanks once more for approaching the present.
Harry Oken: Thanks.
